Below the Surface
Casual chats between an Austrian and Australian on environmental topics that usually don't get talked about openly.
Hosts Gunnar Haid and James Hammond set out to provide a light-hearted and thought-provoking look into Contaminated Land, Resource Recovery, Ecology and general environmental issues in Australia, in particular NSW. They use their experience and industry connections to talk about subjects that, at least in their opinion, don't get talked about enough or not in the right context. Join them for a chuckle and some unique perspectives.
And don't forget to keep track of your listening experience. It is official, listening to Below the Surface collects CPD points at a rate of 0.5 points per hour of listening (self education category).
Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au
https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast
The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.
(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond
Below the Surface
#47 The EIANZ
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Who keeps environmental professionals honest, and what happens when they get it wrong?
Gunnar and James open with a deceptively simple question: would you take a guaranteed $50,000 or risk it on a coin toss for $1 million? Their answers lead to a revealing conversation about risk, certainty, running a business and how personal circumstances shape financial decisions.
Then the episode switches to newly appointed EIANZ President Fiona Gainsford about the growing influence of professional certification in the environmental industry. A frank discussion about professionalism, accountability and who sets the standards for the environmental industry.
They discuss ethics, complaints and disciplinary action, conflicts of interest, misuse of certification seals, and whether the CEnvP system now holds considerable power over environmental professionals and their careers.
They also push Fiona on some pointed questions: why the EIANZ stayed quiet during the asbestos in mulch saga, whether certification seals are vulnerable to misuse, how conflicts of interest are handled in practice, and whether an unpaid volunteer board should hold this much sway over people's livelihoods.
BBC Audio | More or Less | Would you take £50,000 or a 50/50 chance of £1m?
Proposed AS ISO 18400-106 Soil Quality – Sampling
Tony Albert: Not a Souvenir | MCA Australia
Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category
Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au
https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast
The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.
(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond
Transcripts are AI generated and may not accurately reflect the spoken words
Gunnar Haid (00:00)
Welcome to the Below the Surface podcast. I'm your host, Gunnar Haid, and I have someone called Hammond, James Hammond here with me. How are you doing?
Hammond (00:08)
Pretty good, pretty good. What's happening, Gunnar?
Gunnar Haid (00:11)
Finally I got you. And you are you are so hard to get a hold of. Yep.
Hammond (00:16)
made you work hard for this one didn't I Gunnar? We've moved it three times I think.
Gunnar Haid (00:19)
Yeah, you did. Nothing in comparison to our guest, by the way. I mean, Madam President Fiona Gainsford, the brand new president of the EIANZ, it's the Environmental Institute for Australia and New Zealand.
Hammond (00:34)
at who she chose to talk to first, Gunnar. The most prestigious environmental media
Gunnar Haid (00:39)
Mm-hmm.
Hammond (00:40)
outlet below the surface.
Gunnar Haid (00:43)
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Hammond (00:46)
That's
probably a pretty small pool though, isn't it?
Gunnar Haid (00:49)
The the premier environmental contaminated sites podcast out there. Yeah, yeah. I agree with you. Let me ask you this. I came across a quite an interesting question on a on a podcast the other day. So I listened to more or less, that's a BBC podcast. They asked the following question, or they were discussing that someone on Twitter in the in the UK asked the following questions. If I give you
Two options. I give you either fifty thousand dollars for sure, so I hand them to you, no questions asked, or you have the choice of a coin flip for a million dollars.
Hammond (01:37)
Mm-hmm.
Gunnar Haid (01:40)
What would you choose?
I got you a little bit off guard here, I understand.
Hammond (01:48)
Is there a right answer? Is there some kind of mathematically right answer?
Gunnar Haid (01:50)
No Well, mathematically
there is the right answer, of course duh, yeah. But but What okay, what what would you do?
Hammond (01:55)
Yeah. Cause I think I know what I want to say.
I, what I would say right now is, I think I'd go to certainty. I'd go this, I'd go to the thing. I'd go to 50 grand, the a hundred percent of the 50 grand and then turn that into a million, you know, over whatever 10 years. Right. But that's not an option. Okay.
Gunnar Haid (02:11)
That's not the op that's not that's not an option here. It's like no no no none of this, none of this this is the
Hammond (02:16)
But here's my reason. Here's my thinking. Right. So this might be just reflective of me where I'm at at the moment as a business owner and reflecting on 10 years in business, right? Starting a business and trying to grow a business and do something with it is like you're playing this long game for a payoff that may or may not ever eventuate, right? And so that feels a little bit like to me, like the 50 % chance of the million is kind of like, yes, it's a bigger payoff, but there's a lot more uncertainty as to whether you get it. And so I guess the mindset that I'm in right now is like, no, let's go the short thing.
So there you go, that's probably just a mindset of where I'm at at the moment.
Gunnar Haid (02:56)
That's interesting. What do you think I would have gone?
Hammond (03:01)
I don't know, think you're the kind of person that values certainty as well, Gunnar, but... I think you would like your odds as well. I think you would like your chances of a coin flip to get the million. What would you say?
Gunnar Haid (03:13)
That is see that
that is so funny that you you even hesitate there. Because when I heard that first, right? So I and I'm gonna link to the podcast. It's only a 10 minute podcast and it is so interesting. I hear the question when someone says, Would you like fifty thousand dollars
Hammond (03:30)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (03:31)
for sure or a a chance for a million? I think like what kind of stupid question is that?
Who in their right mind wouldn't go for the million bucks here? Because ultimately what you do mathematically is you multiply the likelihood with the outcome. So fifty percent times a million, that's five hundred thousand, and you compare it
Hammond (03:52)
thousand
Gunnar Haid (03:52)
to the other one, which is a certainty of one with fifty thousand. So you're comparing
Hammond (03:56)
Mm-hmm.
Gunnar Haid (03:57)
fifty thousand with five hundred thousand. Where is the where is the problem here, ladies and gentlemen? Which idiot
Wouldn't go for the five hundred thousand here in this case, right? That's that was my thought. Yeah, yeah, but I yeah, I understand. So
Hammond (04:06)
Yeah, but Gunnar, but five times out of ten you end up with nothing.
Gunnar Haid (04:12)
that's what my that's what my initial thought was. And so now as the podcast progressed, they go they dive into it. And the first thing they say is, well, there's all these there's always the the the smug engineers who then think what which idiots and I'm like, Yeah, that that that would be me. What other th what
Hammond (04:29)
Are you listening to me right now?
You're listening to my thoughts?
Gunnar Haid (04:31)
What other That's
right. I can't wait to hear the other side of the story here, Well it turns out that in that Twitter poll, seventy three percent said they would take the fifty thousand pounds. Seventy three percent. Yeah.
Hammond (04:46)
73 % said
they would take the 50 grand. Yeah. Okay. Yep.
Gunnar Haid (04:50)
While only
twenty one percent opted for the million b for the possible million bucks. I don't know what the other six percent did, by the way.
Hammond (04:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (04:58)
They were probably consultants who don't like risk at all and they I'm not playing. Don't do this to me.
Hammond (05:02)
fence sitters, yeah. I would- I neither. I'm happy with nothing. Yeah, can't decide.
Gunnar Haid (05:09)
So but as you as you then listen, keep keep listening I mean it's such an interesting podcast. yeah it it you you nailed it, right? You immediately said, huh
In my position right now, 50 grand would make a heck of a difference. And as a result of that, I take that. And obviously, 73% of people think that way.
Hammond (05:33)
Mmm.
Gunnar Haid (05:34)
I on the other hand, and now this sounds so this sounds horrible now. I just say it.
But fifty grand don't make a heck of a difference in my life. Do you know what I mean? It would
Hammond (05:48)
fair.
Gunnar Haid (05:48)
be nice, but it's not life-changing. A million bucks, on the other hand. Ha ha
Hammond (05:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (05:53)
that makes a difference. And obviously, there is no right or wrong, of course. So I I I asked my friends, right? It's like, hey, what would you do? What would you do? So we're sitting we're sitting there. And every one of them
Every one of them goes for the million bucks Except for one. One she said, What the hell? I take the fifty thousand any time. That's another handbag for me. And I'm sitting,
Hammond (06:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (06:24)
Wow! Wow! What kind of handbags? I mean, seriously? And but you can already see that she she is most definitely not short of a quit. Okay.
Hammond (06:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (06:36)
But for her that was hey, that that's n no questions asked. That was she didn't even hesitate and and everybody at the table.
Hammond (06:42)
I like,
I hear what you're saying, yeah, so comes down to people's circumstances. I also just think that it's just some human psychology in there, Gunnar. just think that people value certainty in general, knowing an outcome for sure. And that's why I think that we, that's when things are uncertain, it's so uncomfortable.
Gunnar Haid (07:01)
Let me change that scenario around for you. You're allowed to play ten times, what would you do? And you can't split.
Hammond (07:07)
Ten times.
Gunnar Haid (07:08)
So you can't say I'm gonna do five times fifty thousand and five times I go over the million. That that's that that's not the
Hammond (07:13)
I think if you play,
I think if you said you played 10 times you take the coin flip for the million for sure. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (07:19)
And not the five hundred thousand.
Hammond (07:21)
No.
funny isn't it?
Gunnar Haid (07:24)
Huh. Yeah.
Hammond (07:27)
I don't know, it's funny you know I never considered myself to be a risk taker but I was talking to somebody in the team the other day and I said something along those lines and they were like what are you talking about? Like of course you're a risk taker, you're a massive risk taker, like you've started a business, you do these projects all the time that are pushing us to the limit of our abilities and we're sort of taking on risks here and there and it's like that's what running a business is all about, and I just don't think it was that clear to me and I think that now
having done it for this time it's like there may or may not be this kind of windfall down the track but it's it's so uncertain. I don't know there's definitely some psychology.
Gunnar Haid (08:01)
Hm. You are certainly i
inside 4Pillars there's you and me who are who are certainly on the on the on the one side of the of the risk spectrum and then there's others I would
Hammond (08:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (08:12)
have actually I could have sworn that you would go for the million. That's amazing.
Hammond (08:16)
I think it's
probably just where I'm at at the moment, like for an answer, because I do think that it changes over time.
Gunnar Haid (08:21)
So d
so Dee obviously doesn't make that much money. I mean we
Hammond (08:28)
Well, like you said, you know, we've got three little ones to look after, so... We
Gunnar Haid (08:35)
Yeah.
Hammond (08:36)
can never seem to make enough, I don't know, whatever we make, just seems to evaporate into looking after three little kids. I know.
Gunnar Haid (08:41)
Yeah, wait until they go to high school.
Hammond (08:47)
Daycare gives private school a run for its money, I
Gunnar Haid (08:53)
How
innocently beautiful blue eyed you are. All right. I
Hammond (08:58)
That was a good exercise Gunnar.
Gunnar Haid (09:00)
like yeah, I'm I I liked it. I thought I have to share this with you. I
Hammond (09:04)
I like those little, yeah,
I like those kind of mind exercises. yeah, just, I think it reveals a lot of different stuff, doesn't it?
Gunnar Haid (09:09)
Mm mm. W you know what I
What I can't stand, there's a lot of things I you know, there's a lot of things I can't stand. But when one of the
Hammond (09:18)
Tell me.
Gunnar Haid (09:19)
things I can't stand is when you are watching a YouTube video and it's a three three minute or a five-minute video, and the first minute and the last minute they spend on asking you to subscribe and smash the s smash the bell or whatever it is
Hammond (09:30)
Yep, smash that subscribe button.
Gunnar Haid (09:32)
and and whatever, right? And and how important it is to get news and and all this kind of nonsense. And I'm like, can
Hammond (09:36)
Mm-hmm.
Gunnar Haid (09:37)
you just get on with it? So we on our podcast, we have never
done anything like that. We'd be we just don't well until
Hammond (09:45)
until now
Gunnar Haid (09:47)
now because I realized when I look at our download stats, we have been plateauing for for yeah the better of the second season basically. So we every episode we we we we re we receive in the first month about you know two hundred, three hundred people and that's it. the the
Bottom line of it all is this I hope that this one, this episode will go out to all the EIA and Z members. And can I just for once ask
all our listeners there is no subscription button and there is no bell to subscribe and whatever to hit here, right? But if you enjoy our podcast, can you please pass it on to some of your friends who you think who you know would also enjoy it? Just spread the word a little bit. Help us grow. I would like to have more than a few hundred people. Whether this is to
Too much asked. I d I don't know because I mean how many of how many consultants are there? By the way, Fiona as you will hear, she how many she said, how many thousand members do they have? So there's there's I mean a few thousand potential listeners here. Come on.
Hammond (10:55)
Yeah, I don't know how many members at EINZ. I mean, if I just look at LinkedIn stats, mean, EINZ nationally has 12,000, roughly 12,000 followers, right? So I mean, New South Wales must be, I don't know, 3,000
Gunnar Haid (11:06)
Yeah, there it goes at twelve thousand downloads, come on.
Hammond (11:11)
of that, 4,000 maybe. So I reckon our audience pool is probably somewhere in the sort of 3 to 5,000 people range in New South Wales.
Gunnar Haid (11:21)
Yeah, I d I
don't know. Look anyway, let's not let's not let's not do this too long because as I said, I hate this stuff.
Hammond (11:26)
This is some... This is some... This is peeking behind the curtain here for
our audience. How riveting.
Gunnar Haid (11:33)
Yeah, fantastic. Again,
if you like the podcast, if you enjoy our band turn, even if you don't, would you please pass it on to someone who who
Hammond (11:41)
Yes, please do.
Gunnar Haid (11:42)
please do. By the way, you get C P D points for listening to us. the what does that stand for? Cont continued pro
Hammond (11:49)
Mm-hmm. That's right. Continuing professional development.
Gunnar Haid (11:54)
professional development points.
Fiona has confirmed that with us a long time ago. I had that ha the EINZ has confirmed with us that listening to us qualifies under the self-education category, so you get half a point for every hour that you listen to us. Go for it.
Hammond (12:11)
Yep.
So that's it. So you can either go and read a scientific journal, snoozefest, or you can listen to BTS. I know what I would choose.
Gunnar Haid (12:18)
Yeah. You
and your planning broadcasts, snoozfest Anyway, I'm not let's not do that again, right? Because you're gonna bring up Acid Sulphur Soils. Which is one of the most downloaded or episodes, if I may add so, right? I'm just just saying that, okay?
Hammond (12:32)
A little bit of healthy competition going on here. That's good. This is good.
Gunnar Haid (12:39)
Excellent. So today we're talking to as I announced to Fiona Gainsford. She will introduce herself as per usual and I I have nothing else to say. I had an amaz yeah I learned so much not only about the EIANZ but I also learned a little bit more about podcasting because if you ask me, I did not do too good a job in following up
on questions that she very skilfully evaded.
You're nodding, say something, it's a podcast. No.
Hammond (13:19)
people can't see me? can... You weren't
getting that, you weren't getting those nods through the... through the speakers. You walk a fine line with these things, don't you? Where you're trying to ask some challenging questions and kind of walk the line, I guess, between pushing back on things that you don't agree on, but doing it in a way that still... Ultimately, this is entertainment, what we're doing here, right? It's
Gunnar Haid (13:45)
Yes.
Hammond (13:46)
information and entertainment.
We don't want to be a place where people don't want to come because they know that it's not going to be a pleasant experience for them. we are trying to walk a line here where it's like, we're having fun, we're respectful, guess, but at the same time, we're asking some of the more challenging questions that have to be asked. And yeah,
Gunnar Haid (14:07)
Mm.
Hammond (14:07)
it's hard. It's hard to get the balance right.
Gunnar Haid (14:10)
Yeah, look i i it i I thoroughly enjoyed it and in typical manner we didn't have
Hammond (14:14)
Yeah, Fiona was awesome.
Gunnar Haid (14:15)
enough time to get into the real nitty-gritties at the end. Fiona will probably come back at at some other time. It's it's all fine. Why not we just dive straight into it? Here's Fiona Gainsford.
Gunnar Haid (14:29)
So Fiona, y welcome. Do I have to call you Madame President now, Fiona?
Fiona Gainsford (14:37)
no, it's a bit weird. But yes, so
Hammond (14:39)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (14:39)
it is a it is a very new title. I think of it's about maybe two weeks now. So I am officially yes, I'm officially the president of the Environment Institute of Australia and New Zealand. It feels exciting. Yeah, yeah. I've I've I felt sorry that Paul had to step out of the role, Paul Keely.
Hammond (15:01)
Mm.
Gunnar Haid (15:02)
So what's his what's he he was president and what's he doing now?
Fiona Gainsford (15:05)
He's had a job for a long time in the Commonwealth Government in the in various environmental agencies and now he's taken on the new role. He is now the chief of staff to the CEO of the national EPA.
Hammond (15:18)
wow.
Gunnar Haid (15:19)
Didn't know there was a national EPA.
Hammond (15:22)
Gunar, it's on our schedule to talk about.
Gunnar Haid (15:24)
Well I thought that that was in the making that
Fiona Gainsford (15:28)
No, it's it's implemented, first of July, it's kicked off. Yep.
Hammond (15:31)
Well, that's awesome. I'm really happy for him. I should contact him 'cause I actually know Paul from when we worked together at the Department of Environment. The reason he's really stuck in my memory, not because we've just, you spent a lot of time together over the years, when I first came across him, he was giving a presentation internally to the department about the C E N V P scheme. His key message was, guys, this is not just a consultant's private sector scheme, this is for government too, and you guys should be interested.
And that was when I I actually started the process of my C N V P while I was in government.
Fiona Gainsford (16:03)
well.
Hammond (16:03)
and and it was because of him. So so that was awesome. So that's a nice little segue back into a lot of what we're gonna talk about today.
Gunnar Haid (16:09)
Before we do anything, Fiona we we always have w warm up questions. which one did you pick?
Fiona Gainsford (16:18)
I picked the dinner guest because I feel like the other one was very egocentric.
Hammond (16:23)
I don't know, you've had a pretty stellar career so far, Fiona, and I'm sure your sure your life is very interesting. It'll probably make a good movie.
Fiona Gainsford (16:29)
No.
Gunnar Haid (16:33)
All right, who would you like to have dinner with? Dead or alive? Anyone you can pick?
Fiona Gainsford (16:37)
Yeah, okay, so I mean I mean there are so many people I'd love to have dinner with, but the person I've chosen today is a gentleman called Tony Albert. Tony is Yurume, Yidinji, and Kuku Ya Yala Anji artist, curator, cultural leader, and he is also a trustee of the Guard Gallery of New South Wales. I've been a bit of a fangirl for quite some time.
But it's fresh of mind because a couple of weeks ago I went to his current exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Sydney. His work is just mind-blowing. He takes lots of things like that Australians would consider us to be very kitsch, souvenirs and reveals much deeper stories that they carry about their representation, racism, identity and cultural ownership. And his current exhibition call is called Not a Souvenir. It's very confronting.
Hammond (17:30)
Mm.
Fiona Gainsford (17:31)
But his wider approach appears to be very much grounded in generosity, dialogue and a belief that institutions can change. I'd like to talk to with him about how boards and organisations can hear difficult truths, how cultural capability is built into behaviour rather than symbolism, and how complex ideas can be communicated in ways that make people see things differently.
Hammond (17:54)
That's awesome. That's the first artist that we've had mentioned. Definitely. That's very cool. I'm
Fiona Gainsford (17:58)
excellent. Yeah.
Hammond (17:59)
not I'm not familiar with his work. I will have to link to his to his exhibition. Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (18:01)
Yeah, well I'd be a strong promotion to get down there at
MCA. I actually think it'd be a challenging, thoughtful and super fun dinner party, guest.
Gunnar Haid (18:11)
That sounds like something you should almost be able to pull off, right?
Hammond (18:14)
I was gonna say that's achievable,
Fiona, I reckon. Y you you must you sound like you're
Fiona Gainsford (18:18)
I don't
Hammond (18:18)
one step away.
Fiona Gainsford (18:19)
I don't know. I don't think I have enough chutspa to to get to into Tony's aura. But
Hammond (18:25)
Mm.
Fiona Gainsford (18:25)
yeah, anyway, you know, there's always ambition.
Gunnar Haid (18:29)
Hey, I almost guarantee you you send him an email, he'll have dinner with you. I'm almost certain. Like it's a it's definitely achievable. I mean if I look at I don't know who I have on my list there, it was was it Sam Harris or Hammond, who did you pick?
Hammond (18:43)
I haven't picked anybody yet, but we had yeah, I mean w it's mostly been e well, either people f historical figures or you can't. Yeah, so
Gunnar Haid (18:50)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (18:53)
Yeah.
Hammond (18:54)
he's he'd be a tough one to to get a hold of.
Fiona Gainsford (18:57)
question is Gunnar why would he want to have why would he want to have dinner with an angsty white woman, you know? So
Hammond (19:03)
Well, I think y you've clearly I mean, you clearly have thought very deeply about his work. I'm sure that would be I'm sure any artist would be interested to hear what what what somebody thinks of their work. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (19:13)
Yeah. the all you have to tell him is hey listen, buddy, I'm a I was a guest on Below the Surface So and you know, he may suddenly put you on his dinner list.
Fiona Gainsford (19:23)
Yeah.
Hammond (19:25)
This this pod's pretty
good, Gunnar. I don't know if we're quite in the sort of art category yet, you know. I
Gunnar Haid (19:30)
No.
Hammond (19:31)
if if we've made it an art yet, I don't know.
Fiona Gainsford (19:34)
I feel like he's a polyglot so he might be interested in everything, so you never know.
Hammond (19:38)
That's true. Very true. that's a good one, Fiona. Well, Fiona, I was hoping that you could maybe just spend a few minutes just taking us through your career hi history.
Fiona Gainsford (19:48)
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to make it too you know, too boring, but I well I did a Bachelor of Science in Applied Geography with an honours in well, submajor in botany and I did my honours thesis on the impact of fire and mining on coastal heathland. Did the big consulting firm rounds to start with, GHD, Sinclair Knight Mertz and CH Sherm Hill. What I did have and loved at the time was all those companies were employee owned.
Which is G D still is, but some of the others aren't now. So that was fifteen years of my career and then I got very much burnt out. I was trying to do everything small children, juggled the load at my annual review and spent the whole time crying. So
Gunnar Haid (20:33)
I
Hammond (20:35)
You're describing maybe not so much the crying in my review bit, Fiona, but you're describing me right now, so I'm trying I feel your pain.
Fiona Gainsford (20:41)
Yeah, no.
Gunnar Haid (20:43)
Our last episode I don't know if has it been released? Yes, it has been released. We we we we
Fiona Gainsford (20:47)
With Kelly?
Gunnar Haid (20:47)
spoke up yes.
Fiona Gainsford (20:48)
Yes, so I worked with Kelly at CH term Hill, which is where I had my burnout. So I haven't listened to Kelly's podcast, but I've seen that she's actually supporting practitioners these days and I was very excited to see that on LinkedIn. So I look forward to hearing.
Gunnar Haid (21:03)
word burnout came up a lot. and I hear it I don't nobody admits to it, but I hear it is. When I'm trying to get a hold of some of my colleagues in in also in senior positions, right? The amount of time they say, Guna, I'd love to, I cannot even talk to you right now. I have this and this due. I have this and this. Can we reschedule for then and then? there there seems to be just an
unrealistic burden on a lot of professionals in our in our industry.
Fiona Gainsford (21:38)
Hm.
Yeah. I see it and hear it from other people too and I do. I have a daughter now who's in the in the industry and obviously a husband as well. So yes, and I think we definitely pass on those tips to her, particular and she's in a consulting role, so it's
Hammond (21:54)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (21:56)
a great career.
Gunnar Haid (21:55)
God. So Did she never ask
you, hey, what do you think about me becoming an environmental consultant? And you would and you said, Yeah, go for it. Because if my
Fiona Gainsford (22:06)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (22:07)
daughter asked me, hey, can I be an environmental consultant? I 'd say let me sit you down here for a second
Hammond (22:13)
Real talk.
Fiona Gainsford (22:16)
No, no, I think we can be very supportive. It's yeah, putting a big picture perspective and let her w her work it out. She's it's it's her journey, so not for us, but we can give her some suggestions about managing expectations and and load. So yeah, anyway, so that was the fifteen years. So after the burnout, I had about three months off and I pretty sure to this day I went to it was an EIANZ breakfast event or some professional breakfast event, and I was walking down Macquarie Street, and this is a true story. I th
I saw a picture on one of the billboards, and there was a Megan Gale wearing a red Sabah trench coat. And I went, I really like that trench coat, but I need to get back to work if I'm gonna be able to afford that trench coat. So I decided I need to get back to work. Look, I interviewed with a couple consultancies and I went, it feels like groundhog day, no. So then I went, nope, I'm gonna I'm gonna set up my own business.
Hammond (23:11)
And I guess and so at what point then so you've been doing that now for fifteen or eighteen years you said about. So yeah, you that's that's a
Fiona Gainsford (23:16)
Yeah, 18 Years
Hammond (23:18)
y and so at what point there did you get involved in the institute?
Fiona Gainsford (23:22)
that's a good question because I act decided when I went out on my own that I would join the New South Wales Division Committee. And I think I've been to a few events where Anita Anita Mitchell was which I think she was president at the time and I loved her. And then I met a whole bunch of really great people like Faye Woodward and Michael Chilcott who were really very impressive practitioners and gave a lot of their time and and they made it fun as well. Faye made it really fun, so
Hammond (23:49)
Okay, so
Fiona started you started on the New South Wales committee, but then
Fiona Gainsford (23:52)
It's
Hammond (23:53)
just let us talk about your progression through there. So y tell us about your progression through that committee and then leading to this current position as president overall.
Fiona Gainsford (24:01)
Yeah, so so you're right. From the K New South Wales Dim Division Committee, at the time, so the Certified Environmental Practitioner Program was setting up specialist environmental advisory committees. so they're the the groups within the specializations and the general certification that keeps a track of any changes or needs to competencies and proficiencies. So I ended up chairing that for the impact assessment.
So that was really enjoyable. And then be everyone being on a committee or you know, the P and C, the school P and C or you know, have most of us know, understand that you've got some governance and the minutes and and and things you have to produce. But no I didn't really have the language around the governance. What does that mean? I didn't un there's a whole lot of words that are used and I just didn't really understand what I had learned through the institute. And then I decided Brendan assisted us to put all the, you know, good
quality governance in place. And then I went and did the AIC, Australian Institute of Company Directors course. And I just went, wow, this is super cool. Really loved it. It was so informative. Learnt so much, particularly around finance, financial oversight, key areas. I seemed to be a bit of a a left field in our in our cohort. Didn't have anybody to go through with, so really struggled a bit, but I just cleared the cleared the deck and did it and yeah I got through.
Which I very proud of. It was a big ordeal.
Hammond (25:25)
Mm.
Fiona Gainsford (25:26)
and then I think at that time I decided to put put and put my hand up to for the board nominations for the EIANZ board.
Hammond (25:32)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (25:33)
Yeah. Yes, I'm very much
Gunnar Haid (25:34)
So you worked your way up through the EIANZ. You're Madam President, surrounded by
by Secret Service people. when I wrote down the the run sheet of what what do I want to talk to you about, I thought, hey, you know what? I know the EIANZ for two things. I know you guys for the certification program you have in place, the the the CENVP, the s certified environmental practitioner, and I know you guys for putting up certain w webinars and training sessions.
That's the two things I know about. Is that all there is to it? Wha what else is there to the EIANZ
Fiona Gainsford (26:12)
Yeah, so we have also have an advocacy role. So we respond both at the division level and at the institute level to to major government policy changes, to guidance notes, to those sort of broader requests for information, have your say's. We've got a number of board committees. so the bo policy and standard committee coordinates those resp w whether we're going to respond and how to respond and then the board has a role to to
Gunnar Haid (26:39)
Mm.
Fiona Gainsford (26:39)
endorse that.
So we also offer networking, which is super important, to get make sure that our our members are connected. And very excitingly, coming up in New South Wales, we actually have, I think, at least five locations in all as well as three regional locations all simultaneously having in in borough drinks across the state. And Queensland's doing really, you know, really branching out into that and connecting with regional members. And I think after COVID.
And the success of being able to pivot, yeah, the institute pivoted with the webinars, which you mentioned, Gunnar. that really gave we had a lot of feedback from regional members being thrilled that they could finally felt connected. We also have significant more conference offerings, so at a high level, so we have we call it marquee events, so for professional development. So because of certific certified practitioners need a home, an ability to get their continue continuous professional development.
Hammond (27:35)
Do you think that in terms of in terms of that advocacy or like at least the policy feedback, do you feel that government agencies are aware enough and are coming to the EIANZ or is it more still the EIANZ talking to government?
Fiona Gainsford (27:48)
I think certainly at the Commonwealth level and I think most states, I think now we have a very much have a seat at the table. I think the smaller divisions do struggle because of, you know, numbers of people on the volunteering. But the Commonwealth government in this current government, they're all over it, particularly setting up the new environment the national EPA, setting with EP environmental protection and biodiversity conservation act reforms.
we've had significant contributions to feeding back and and we are sought out now. which
Hammond (28:20)
Hm.
Fiona Gainsford (28:20)
is really exciting.
Hammond (28:22)
Yeah, well that that's great because I always saw the EIANZ and and and I guess an and AUGA and other industry like peak bodies as being a great resource for government to draw on and you sort of i it gives that independence as well to the voice, right? 'Cause the government is often hesitant, I think, to go to individuals or individual companies because there's there it creates that it creates issues. But the peak bodies can kind of filter out that sort of a thing and provide that independent industry wide feedback, which I think is really important.
Gunnar Haid (28:49)
Okay, so the certification process. First of all, hat tip. Someone had to do this. Someone had to come up and regulate our industry. I found it amazing when I came to Australia and I had just finished my studies in petroleum engineering and a few months later I was signing environmental reports. It's just kind of really struck me as weird that I could do that.
And this is one of the very few industries where you can write full blown detailed side assessments and you basically don't have to show any sort of qualification. This is the I it's you know, you have anything in your household that has to do a little bit more than screwing in a light bulb. I've mentioned that on a on a previous podcast before. You need a licensed electrician. Or you want a DSI signed. Pff have a have a newly graduate petroleum engineer do that. That's no that's not an issue. Okay, fair enough, I was supervised, but there was no there was no certification.
at all. So then you guys come along and you you tackle that. So that gives you a and not only the certification process, but managing to get that certification recognized by the EPA and so the New South Wales EPA at least I don't know about the others, and also more and more by councils. That is the the coup d'etat. That's where the rubber really made the road because now suddenly
You guys not only have produced a certification process, but it's hard to go past that. If you want to do serious work in our in in our industry, in the contaminated sites industry at least, without the CNVP or even the site contamination specialization, you're not going very far anymore. So kudos, I have to say, and it w when did that actually start? It's it's been around for quite a while now, hasn't it?
Fiona Gainsford (30:43)
I I think we're coming up to our twentieth year for certification and next year is the fortieth year of the institute. So we've
Hammond (30:50)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (30:51)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (30:51)
done a lot in a short time.
Hammond (30:53)
It's unreal.
Gunnar Haid (30:54)
When I look at the certification, especially the general one, is heavily ethics based. You know, there is very rarely are there are any technical questions asked. It's it's all about you know, how how much of a of a valuable member to to our industry are are you and and all the questions for the referees are aimed at that more
Hammond (31:20)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (31:20)
or less at at the ethics.
Why such an such a lond a lot of emphasis on on the ethical side? How did you determine that this is such an important factor in the in the general certification?
Fiona Gainsford (31:34)
Yes I look so I don't actually know the history, but what I will say is that it is there's over eight hundred certified generalists. So someone's feeling there's a lot of people seeing value. And I think i if you remember too that if you're a certified environmental practitioner, you don't have to be a member of EIANZ. You know, that is not a requirement. We have that s separation and of course there's many practitioners, but it's very interesting for the generalists. generalists again, we've always come the Institutes are wide
The broad church, massively. There's so many different professional professionals who don't necessarily fit into the mould or necessarily want to be seen in that mould. I mean, I remember when I applied for my impact assessment specialization, I thought, do I really want to be s just seen as that? So I actually do still value and sometimes use my generalist seal. I think so the value coming back for the certified practitioners generalists also could be that, you know, if they're not members, that they're still
sign up to our code of ethics and professional conduct and that is gold when you have to uphold your own environmental standards. That certification also is valuable for government agencies and and it because they
Hammond (32:48)
Mm.
Fiona Gainsford (32:49)
they can then flip it around and say, right, you've signed up to that code. So they see value now. So there's more there'll be I think there's more and more recognition of just the suitably qualified person full stop.
Hammond (33:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that recognition, at least from government, of the general certification is still lagging quite a bit and I'm hoping that over time it it builds up. 'Cause like I said, I think like you just said, I think I see a lot of opportunity for it to become this kind of baseline, right? So there's this almost this barrier to entry of someone who wants to present themselves as an environmental professional, you know, it must have this kind of baseline certification. And obviously people who are coming new into the industry, it just means that they can't
come in as a grad and start doing whatever they want, they're gonna have to work up to at least the five year mark that you need for that and then look to do their own thing if they want to.
Fiona Gainsford (33:38)
There's also some companies who do use it being able to achieve s your general certification as a KPI or a way to move up the organization. So the
Gunnar Haid (33:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (33:48)
problem be that there's also some companies, you know, who have generally made that as a incorporate that into their ethos.
Hammond (33:57)
I think the value in it is more the i th it sets the ethical framework and it it's really the complaints mechanism is how I see it. It's like you create a flaw, somebody must meet that ha hold that certification to do X, Y, and Z as specified by the regulator. And the thing is that it then creates an accountability there. Whereas if somebody does the wrong thing, in theory, they lose that certification and then therefore they cannot do all those things that the regulator requires. If nothing else, it creates this accountability framework
And that's really what I see the general special the general certification doing.
Fiona Gainsford (34:31)
definitely. No, I think that's you know, an excellent way to describe it, James.
Gunnar Haid (34:35)
Okay, we have last year we made a we made a podcast called The Honest Truth, where we intensively spoke about basically the EIANZ's code of ethics when we went through it. And one of the things that Hammond mentioned was there is a certain standard and there is a complaints process attached to that. Is that actually happening in reality? How do people complain?
How often do you receive complaints? What type of complaints are there? And what actions do you take? Because this if this is one of your major roles that I see is the certification process. And people are genuinely worried about losing their certification. So tell me about it. Do you receive a lot of complaints?
Fiona Gainsford (35:27)
so one, yes, we get complaints. Two complain there is a complaints mechanism on our website. If some we also have a supporting we have a an ethics call line. So if somebody wasn't sure where they wanted to make a complaint or wasn't sure or they were complained about, we also have a support service for either. The process goes to our central office who did a first vet of the incoming to make sure it's w not vexatious or
Hammond (35:51)
Mm. There there must be some bar I guess they would have to meet in terms of like the pr providing information to support the claim, right?
Fiona Gainsford (35:59)
That's right, yeah. So there's quite a lot of paperwork that is usually supported. However, we are get we have, I mean there's only a tiny sample size, but I'm gonna say it's been really diverse. So so there's been clients, government, and other practitioners. it's been interesting. So very, very different, very different reasons, very different very much different cases.
And yes, there have been situations where people have lost their certification and it is definitely not taken lightly in any way.
Hammond (36:33)
Yeah.
Taking away a certification is one potential outcome of a disciplinary action, right? But then imagine there are other penalties as well.
Fiona Gainsford (36:41)
there's plenty of others. Yeah. See ya. There's lots of many other outcomes. That might be further training, so the ethics training, that might be yeah, it depends up it's just disparity committee. Sometimes it it's better, you know, QA to be honest. Quality assurance, you know. I think sometimes people forget about QA, QA all the way,
Hammond (36:58)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (36:58)
as we used to say. So you know, some basic QA in document document controlled, you know, sometimes can be as simple as that, just not being transparent about
Hammond (37:08)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (37:08)
the levels of documentation.
So sometimes quite simple. But we have since on recent cases, the last two or three years, I think every February, put out a reminder to the certified practitioners about competencies and you know, and those and some lessons learned. Yes.
Gunnar Haid (37:24)
I'm going back, how many complaints did you receive?
Fiona Gainsford (37:27)
To be honest, now that I'm not the secretary, I don't know how many of misinformation or the frivolous ones, but
Gunnar Haid (37:32)
All right, twenty a year
or two hundred a year? That's all I'm all I wanna know.
Fiona Gainsford (37:36)
no, no, no, no, no. We're probably talking about maybe under twenty a year. So
Gunnar Haid (37:40)
Okay.
Fiona Gainsford (37:40)
it's not big numbers. Yeah, ten, so maybe max, maybe
Gunnar Haid (37:43)
Okay.
Fiona Gainsford (37:43)
less than ten, depending on the year. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (37:46)
And they are being done via the website. Can you complain anonymously? WikiLeaks style?
Fiona Gainsford (37:53)
I actually can't remember, but I know that if you want it progressed it needs to be transparent. Yeah, it needs to be verified.
Hammond (38:00)
Anonymity with anything like that introduces, yeah, all sorts of problems. Like yeah, you'd probably have a lot more vexatious complaints if it was anonymous.
Gunnar Haid (38:08)
And are the complaints coming mostly from regulators complaining about subpar behavior by consultants or are some consultants complaining about other consultants? Where do the complaints come from?
Fiona Gainsford (38:21)
Yeah, as I I think mismention earlier though, so they they know it's a mixture. So that can
Gunnar Haid (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
Fiona Gainsford (38:25)
be clients, industry, other consultants and regulators. So
Gunnar Haid (38:30)
Mm-hmm.
Fiona Gainsford (38:31)
the institute put out a I think some time ago, a advisory note on how to do peer review as well, because that for a while there was a bit of animosity between consultants. so now there's some guidance on what an appropriate peer review looks like too. So you can't just say god, Consultant X has done that completely crap.
Hammond (38:50)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (38:50)
there's some
Gunnar Haid (38:50)
Mm.
Fiona Gainsford (38:51)
Actually you have to verify and you know do an appropriate appropriate response.
Gunnar Haid (38:57)
Okay.
Fiona Gainsford (38:59)
you know, if you've been asked is if you're an independent peer reviewer, that there is an expectation of you know professional response.
Hammond (39:04)
Hm.
Gunnar Haid (39:05)
What's the most severe punishment you have ever handed out?
Fiona Gainsford (39:09)
be loss of s of a specialist certification.
Gunnar Haid (39:13)
is that then publicized?
Hammond (39:15)
Yeah, that brings me to that question, Gunai, which is yeah, i i exactly that. Is it is it publicised and if if not, should it be?
Fiona Gainsford (39:23)
Our rules allow for the board to name and shame and it's considered with every case where an adverse outcome is is found. We always notify the person who made the complaint of the outcome and then decide whether to notify the regulators or the public. We haven't taken this step, this final step, public notification, because who does it serve?
If someone's can certificate is cancelled, it's we're much more inclined to let practitioners know the basis of the case so they're mindful of not making the same mistake, but there's little benefit in naming the practitioner.
Hammond (39:58)
I I think the point for me with that is that I don't think we want necessarily to see an individual's name up in light so that they can be publicly shamed. For me it's more about I wouldn't have even known that somebody had had their specialization taken away. So I wonder is there an option to publicise this kind of information but without naming people necessarily, but just saying, you know, we had X amount of disciplinary actions, these are the these are the outcomes from them. Only because it's like if s if you're driving along in your car and you see a police car on the side of the road
You're gonna go the speed limit, right? It's about that visibility and personally I don't think the vis visibility is there in terms of how the the scheme's being policed.
Fiona Gainsford (40:36)
Yeah, I mean that's good. I'm happy to take that back. I notice in in one particular jurisdiction the regulator notified all the other sa does just say state government no notified local government.
Gunnar Haid (40:47)
Have people ever abused the seals? I mean it's so easy to copy
Fiona Gainsford (40:53)
yes. I've seen one which was a doozy. But it's again,
Hammond (40:56)
Mm.
Fiona Gainsford (40:57)
it's like it was put as a ba well, I don't think they I don't even know what they intended. They put it as the banner under their organization. Just header. For anybody who was not doesn't quite understand the you know, if any of your listeners are new to certification, every person has their own seal and it has a it has the year and it has their reference number within the seal. So it's a it's a person specific seal. I have seen the we are an EI.
and said organization, there's no such thing. We don't have
Hammond (41:24)
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (41:26)
we have we don't
Gunnar Haid (41:27)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (41:27)
have organizational members. We have organizations who who who will have five memberships and then we nominate, they're
Gunnar Haid (41:34)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (41:34)
always nominated.
Gunnar Haid (41:35)
Look I I that that's a mistake, I guess, by someone who what I'm more or less referring to, someone could take you know Well, I I don't look
Fiona Gainsford (41:42)
Well may is it is it a mistake, Guno? I don't know.
Gunnar Haid (41:45)
I don't know. but when someone says we are an EIANZ company, yeah, I I okay, fair enough, that's not really the the term to use. you
Hammond (41:53)
It's not correct, yeah.
Gunnar Haid (41:54)
know it's not correct, but it's not it's not, you know, okay, boohoo. But what when someone
Takes my seal that's out there, right? On on you just Google like my seal, my signature is all over the internet because every council has my reports there, right? And it is a piece of cake to screenshot that and put that onto some onto another report. And of course it has my registration number on it, but it doesn't mean anything to anyone, right? This is like that's just a seal, right? But that is most definitely something that sh shouldn't happen, but it is extremely easy for it to happen. Have you come across that a lot?
Fiona Gainsford (42:29)
not no, I've not we've never seen appropriation, although I did hear a I will call it a kitchen conversation recently, you know, in an office that I was working where the that had to happen to a someone else in our profession and she was having a chat to her manager about it and and I thought I was horrified. I was just horrified.
Hammond (42:49)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I th and I g it leads me to this question right we had here which was around do you think there's a need or has the institute considered I guess any of those kind of quality controls around SEALs, like for example, embedding a QR code or something where somebody could check it and it takes you to a website that confirms that you know that because there's also also issues with people who may get a certification and then let it lapse, for instance. not pay their fees, not do their C P D, all that sort of thing.
but they continue to use the seal right just hypothetically. whereas a
Fiona Gainsford (43:20)
Yeah. I mean I
Hammond (43:21)
is there some kind of a verification step that the institute ha has considered or is considering?
Fiona Gainsford (43:27)
I mean the only way would be for you for the person to whom is receiving it, for example, the EPA would be to check, you know, to jump on the web take about two minutes to jump on jump on the website and check that that person's valid. And it is, you know, with a as a REAP with a registered environmental assessment practitioner, it's also it's also very relevant.
Gunnar Haid (43:44)
Okay, last question on that on that very subject. 'cause I the reason why we spend so much time on that is actually I see that as one of them pr your primary roles is is the certification and the integrity that goes with it. See I didn't know that there was that many complaints because yeah you don't p you don't publicize it and and there's good reasons for it. I I I get it.
what's the biggest mistake that people make? With the most complaints, what are they all about? What what do people comb how bad does it have to get? So that it that it hits that someone knocks on your door?
Fiona Gainsford (44:19)
We've only got small sample size gunas, so they're very varied, very
Gunnar Haid (44:23)
Mm-hmm.
Fiona Gainsford (44:23)
different, yeah, from from technical very deeply technical to to professional to professional conduct.
Gunnar Haid (44:30)
Yeah. I think one of one of the things that is still f in my eyes that is not taken seriously is declaration of conflicts of interest. That hardly hardly ever happens. It's also very hard to to know, but when you when you know it's like man, you should have declared that.
Fiona Gainsford (44:47)
Well, it's definitely a end of the professional conduct. I mean, absolutely sits the co you know, ethic you know, conflict of interest. Take that it's very easy to check a conflict of interest, test it out with somebody, there's a process. All the local planning panels I'm on deeply like it's very clear and transparent about, you know, that
Gunnar Haid (45:04)
yeah.
But but what I'm saying is that I hardly ever read a conflict of interest declaration in an environmental report. We we have just published one, but that would be the first one. But that was where there was actually a potential or a perceiv perceivable conflict of interest.
Fiona Gainsford (45:20)
Okay.
as in you've incorporated it into a report just to just to make it transparent. Yeah, yeah. No, I've never seen that.
Gunnar Haid (45:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (45:25)
That that is a great idea. I like that very much. yeah. I'm just gonna write that too.
Gunnar Haid (45:30)
and I I'm
I'm actually surprised that in the reporting guidelines it doesn't say that, hey guys, every environmental report needs needs a statement. It's like hey
Hammond (45:38)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (45:39)
whatever the general statement is. But that is one of the things that I know that a lot of members fall foul of.
Fiona Gainsford (45:46)
Yeah, so I think someone like Tim Kirby would recognize that we all have a conflict of interest because the department requires us to do something. The applicant ma calls for you know, seeks a professional consultant's advice in this case, and that consultant's advice goes back to the department. So yes, they do recogni recognise it is a triangulation of potential conflicts, but and that's the process.
Gunnar Haid (46:11)
Hammond,
name yours. I mean it's such a classic.
Hammond (46:14)
my my view is that as soon as money changes hands that that it creates a conflict of interest and I think as somebody who's running a consulting firm you're hoping for a good outcome for the client because that's gonna mean a happy client and it's gonna mean more work in the future. And as long as that carrot is dangling there in front of you it it does create a conflict of interest and part of the work that we have to do as good environmental professionals is to somehow compartmentalize that in our mind where we're saying, Yes it exists but
You've got to put that to the side and you've got to do your job blind to that. But I do think that more and more people should think about what kinds of roles or what kinds of things we do in the industry where there should be true independence, where like for example there's like a trust fund pot of money that sits there that pays for people to do the work so there is no kind of exposure to that potential for bias. And I think an example of that may be state significant development project audit. You know, the proponent pays the auditor to do the audit. I'm not saying that they do a
Bad job because of that, but there is there is a conflict of interest there and so potentially that's something where for audits that happen once every three years and you want something truly independent, there's a pot of money somewhere that's dispersed by the department and there's a standard fee and and and that's how it's done. So yeah, I just think it's something that we need to think about more deeply.
Fiona Gainsford (47:29)
Yeah, and remember too, there's not just financial gain, there's reputational gain. So there's all sorts of
Hammond (47:34)
We should probably
maybe we should get move on maybe to the points around advocacy, I think, 'cause that was something we were really keen to talk about. Gunnar, do you wanna do you wanna kick things off? 'Cause this is definitely a
Gunnar Haid (47:44)
Yes.
Hammond (47:44)
big interest of yours.
Gunnar Haid (47:48)
I w I've given I don't know if you've heard the the the the podcast, I've given EIANZ and I've given ALGA and I've given the the and the ACLCA, the Australian Contaminated Land Consultants Association. I've given them a hard time. Specifically when it came to mulch gate. So our you know, in two years ago we found asbestos in mulch, and and we we all remember and we
Fiona Gainsford (48:10)
Yeah, that's my favorite episode.
Gunnar Haid (48:12)
And we still
Hammond (48:12)
Ha ha.
Gunnar Haid (48:13)
everybody's still shell shocked about it, right? So I gave I gave I I I gave Tony Chapel a hard time and I started I also gave you guys a hard time. I'm not gonna go into what I think about how the EPA reacted to this and and the New South Wales government. But I th I found a complete lack of voice from industry associations like yours. I have a feeling that the silence that comes
is not a silence because when it comes to being silent on such an important point, it is a a silent agreement. So where was the EIANZ statement to say everybody relax? This is not what needs to happen here. Where was that? Where is for example I'll give you another one, the EPA is about to release its official response to the Oxy paper where the
Office of the chief scientist recommends a threshold for asbestos in recycled material, and that threshold is 10 times below the detection limit. I know I'm on the special interest group with Alga, and we are working very hard to lobby that this doesn't happen. Where is the EIANZ in all this? Don't you think you should be a voice there where we need to bombard the EPA and saying
Now is the time to clean up that nonsense. Now is the time. Where is your lobbying? W are you doing enough of the lobbying? Are you deliberately not doing it? I don't know. This is where I'm trying to give you not not trying to give you a hard time, but this is one of the things I need to talk to you about.
Fiona Gainsford (49:56)
Yeah, no, I understand. so as a volunteer organization, that doesn't ex doesn't excuse any advocacy. But the advocacy, I mean, for example, with the board, our board, we have a limited capacity for anything. So we agree in advance with our policy and standards committee what types of position statements
and policies will we respond to and then we have also allow for government responses. We are not actively seeking anything in advance, that is, we haven't got capacity. We are a broad church. We have a lot of a lot of things to be cranky and miserable about.
Hammond (50:35)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (50:35)
It th it's probably probably driven by capacity, but if there was something that absolutely
Hammond (50:38)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (50:39)
burning. Like and I know the the ecological consultants of Australia, New South Wales recently ste just went in to advocate for their members who are actually feeling psychological harm by
Hammond (50:49)
Hmm. Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (50:50)
a government agency and they went out of their way. But none of our ecologists came to approach us and someone said, Why didn't EIANZ do something about that? So well, I haven't heard anything to that effect from our ecologists.
Hammond (51:00)
Yeah.
Do you think that being a very like you said, a broad church, a very broad organization representing lots of different interests and disciplines, do you think that makes it harder for the EIANZ to advocate and to speak on issues than it does for those more niche organizations like Kazans, you know, the Air Quality Society, like the Ecological Consultant Society? do you think it makes it harder?
Fiona Gainsford (51:22)
I think well we're well supported by our special interest sections. So we have a significant volunteer capabilities and expertise in everything from ecology to heritage to contaminated land to life cycle analysis to environmental accounting, social impact. now we've got our AI community of practice as well. So the thing that we're doing at the moment, we're making sure that we're not
the ca is not siloed. For example, we have a great opportunity and we have done with the EPBC, the Environmental Protection, Biodiversity Conservation, the Ken Henry reforms in branching out. So we now reach to our our our heritage special interest section. We talk to our environmental accounting special interest section and we talk to our biodiversity special interest section and we're able to bring a really robust broad response to such such an important area. We don't pick everything
Hammond (52:14)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (52:15)
but we can we have
that ability because we have such a big coordinated central office now that we have capacity to to do that work. We
Hammond (52:22)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (52:23)
we punt well above our weight for a for a small little team.
Hammond (52:26)
Okay, I was actually trying to take the reins of the policy subcommittee, if you want to call it that, for New South Wales when I was part of the committee and and it was challenging, right? Does E INZ put out any information that's out there in terms of like, I guess setting people's expectations as to what the institute will and won't comment or advocate on?
Fiona Gainsford (52:45)
no, I don't think we're not limiting it. I had a policy response the other day where I questioned back up to the policy standards and to the the contributors about whether we were the right organization to respond. Thanks thank you to our feisty and very appropriately responding engagement specialists who actually have expertise in impact assessments. So they've become engagement specialists around that. So it was appropriate to be responding to again to the Commonwealth on that. So yeah.
Gunnar Haid (53:13)
We really have to come to an end. Madam President, two things I I have to t ask you maybe to take on board. The first one is please seriously think about having a CENVP for regulators. Have a different stream for regulators. Soil Science Australia does it for the for the registered soil practitioners.
I
Fiona Gainsford (53:43)
No.
Gunnar Haid (53:43)
find it f eternally frustrating to have my reports reviewed by people who are just not qualified to do that.
Hammond (53:56)
What's the counter argument, Fiona?
Fiona Gainsford (53:58)
I completely disagree. I think there's people with incredible expertise. We have we've just we ha we talked about that a lot in the in the C Act, the Specialist Environmental Assessment Committee for Impact Assessment. I completely disagree. I think, for example, the people who are regulating impact assessment who are the senior practitioners have excellent impact assessment skills. I think
Gunnar Haid (54:20)
Okay,
prove it. Get certified.
Fiona Gainsford (54:22)
No, they do. They have been im that's they we have certified people in who are REITs now. We have people who are certified in government. So, you know, is and when we talk to government, people sorry, our members within government, we want to support them and the community wants to see that as well. So it is, you know, incredibly valuable if you're a you know, a senior assessing officer in any capacity to have a certification. I mean that gives
Credentials, it also you know gives you that same thing. So that is not it's
Hammond (54:56)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (54:57)
not a limitation. And certainly, I don't know about contaminated land, but that's not
Gunnar Haid (55:01)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (55:02)
a specialization. Maybe that's
Hammond (55:03)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (55:03)
a technical, but certainly there's other technical areas where it's absolutely appropriate and relevant and they shouldn't be separated. It is not
Gunnar Haid (55:10)
N I hear you. But when
it comes to the site contamination specialists, you you cannot become an a CNVP S C if you're working for a regulator because you don't have the reports that you have written. But
Hammond (55:21)
Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't meet the criteria
Gunnar Haid (55:26)
if you are a
Fiona Gainsford (55:26)
Well
Gunnar Haid (55:26)
someone who is who has a career regulator, you cannot become
Hammond (55:32)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (55:38)
site contamination specialists certified.
Fiona Gainsford (55:41)
I was gonna say I think that's a good conversation, but I I genuinely think you could say that those those regulators have to prepare a report and they have to have considered and demonstrated that they've considered the issues. So there has to be some paper trail and I don't believe they wouldn't have that. So I I I I question that.
Hammond (55:57)
Yeah. I think
I can see both sides of this, but I I think I think my observation is that it it differs by discipline. So I think that IA, for example, so sorry, impact assessment I think is maybe quite different to say ecology or contaminated land where a lot of the expertise comes from being hands on and actually designing and implementing physical investigations.
And you're not going to get that from just reading another consultant's report. So yeah, I my two cents on the whole thing is that I I I think a regulator specific certification only makes sense if it's not possible for them to meet the criteria for the existing certification. Gunai, you said you had two. What's number two?
Gunnar Haid (56:36)
Number the next one. please think about whether we you could elevate CNVP members or specialized members to be allowed to witness signatures in Australia. I look at the list where people are allowed to do that, you know, so the the classic is the JP, lawyers, judges, doctors. Fair enough. We we go down the list.
Financial advisors chiropractors Okay
Hammond (57:09)
Really?
Gunnar Haid (57:10)
Australian post employees and registered ministers of a religion surely we qualify. I mean you know we're not talking the highest standing members of our society
Hammond (57:23)
Mm-hmm.
Gunnar Haid (57:23)
here.
Fiona Gainsford (57:24)
Well, goodna I had I have just been through that process trying to get a sign off of power attorney for my parents. Yes, but I was quite shocked that we were not on there. But we are a young profession of forty years. So yes.
Hammond (57:38)
Ha ha ha.
Fiona Gainsford (57:40)
Certified practitioners, I mean and we've only been certified for twenty years, so yes, 'cause as scientists and engineers we're often not good promoters. We're not. We're not good
Gunnar Haid (57:47)
No, no we're not
Fiona Gainsford (57:48)
promoters. We're saying think about on the scale of promoters, we'd be pro down the way down the bottom.
Gunnar Haid (57:53)
That's right.
Fiona Gainsford (57:54)
So yes,
Hammond (57:54)
Yeah.
Fiona Gainsford (57:55)
I will take that note.
Gunnar Haid (57:56)
Because one group is registered or appropriately qualified engineers. So surely we could slip in there.
Fiona Gainsford (58:02)
I agree. No, no, I I I I think there's potential there, yes. And I think I I agree with you
Hammond (58:09)
Let me let me let me bring it back to your new role. Do do you want to just give us one thing that that you'd like to achieve in your term as president?
Fiona Gainsford (58:17)
Yeah, actually and that is is bringing cultural capability into the organisation from a top down. So we do
Hammond (58:24)
Mm-hmm.
Fiona Gainsford (58:24)
you know, I've had many supportive activities for our members. We need to be better to support our Aboriginal members. We need to support our members to be able to have the competencies and understanding about Aboriginal culture, about modern culture as well. At the end of the day we really want to become a trusted partner to Aboriginal organisations.
and so I would really love to become a an organisation where Aboriginal organisations of any in any capacity feel confident and trust that we would take and recognize them as trusted partners.
Hammond (58:58)
Interesting. Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (58:59)
It's been good. I mean ha we we completely skipped one major point. Hammond and I have a completely different opinion about whether the amount of power EIANZ has over people's careers should vest in a volunteer organization. Just to tell you what I
Hammond (59:18)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (59:18)
mean, he's like I can the EPA, you know, the the ultimate regulator here in New in New South Wales has basically no power over me.
If an EPA officer or the CEO gets pissed off with me, so be it. I don't like it, but there is really nothing that happens to me. If I get a foul with EIANZ, that is potentially career ending for me. I don't even know if you guys are aware of it or if you are putting processes in place that are adequate because you have people's livelihoods at your fingertips.
Hammond (59:55)
Yeah.
Gunnar Haid (59:55)
My opinion is
All the power to you, you you earned it and thank you for putting the certification process there. You have a lot of power and I'm not sure if it should vest with you anymore. Da that's my opinion. Hammond has a completely different one.
Hammond (1:00:13)
You can't
You can't tease I'll let you I'll let you respond to that Fiona, but yeah, we you can't tease it like that, Gunnar. We can't I I'd love I'd love to have a
Gunnar Haid (1:00:19)
Ha ha ha
Hammond (1:00:21)
debate with you, but I can't. I have to go. But I I that would make a nice little five minute TikTok esque
Gunnar Haid (1:00:26)
Five minutes?
Hammond (1:00:27)
a little little TikTok esque thing that we could put on as a separate thing. So I reckon let's how about you and me come back to that at another time 'cause yeah,
Gunnar Haid (1:00:34)
Yes.
Hammond (1:00:35)
I basically have the complete opposite view to you. But Fiona, do you want to have just a couple of couple of words on that?
Fiona Gainsford (1:00:40)
we take it very seriously. I mean we have a independent board for certification. In interestingly I'm gonna say that on the most significant matter for our our disciplinary committee to date, the livelihood was deeply discussed, to the point where as a board member I looked at the deliberations and went, that is I was shocked at how much that w almost swayed the response to the point of actually the environmental harm. I would I mean a full hand on my heart say that we we
is not certainly not done lightly. No, it's not perfect, but you know, yeah. I I just I hear you.
Hammond (1:01:15)
Yeah, I think there's definitely a part two to all this, but I mean my observation, Fiona, and th this and this is mo this is how I feel honestly, I think is that your your passion for good governance, I actually think that is part of Gunnar, what what you mentioned about making sure the institute's really robust. That what you're doing, Fiona, I think will further strengthen that.
Gunnar Haid (1:01:37)
Fiona, thank you. Yeah, that was awesome. I
Hammond (1:01:39)
Thanks, Fiona.
Gunnar Haid (1:01:40)
I really enjoyed that.
Fiona Gainsford (1:01:42)
That was really enjoyable. Thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed that conversation.
Hammond (1:01:46)
Thanks, Fiona.
Gunnar Haid (1:01:47)
All the best good luck with w you have a lot to do.
Hammond (1:01:50)
Thanks Fiona.
Fiona Gainsford (1:01:51)
Next time. Bye.
Gunnar Haid (1:01:53)
Mm-hmm.